Episode 1: Jonathan Colman (Muscle Tough, Winderman Colman & Kimock, Dungeon Crawl)

Bub & Pop | Episode 1: Jonathan Colman (recorded January 7, 2026)

Join music journalist Matt Hoffman at the The Boom Room in Philadelphia's Fishtown neighborhood as he has a conversation with Jonathan Colman, bassist extraordinaire. (Muscle Tough, Winderman Colman & Kimock, Dungeon Crawl.)

An audio-first version of this podcast is available wherever you get yours.

Jonathan Colman | Patreon | Instagram | TikTok | Improv Manifesto

Host: ⁠⁠⁠Matt Hoffman⁠⁠⁠ | Producer: ⁠⁠⁠Tedd Kanakaris

TRANSCRIPT (minimally QC'ed)

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:19:22 Matt Hoffman Hi, I'm Matt Hoffman, and this is the Bob & Pop podcast where we talk about music, careers in music, life, the universe and everything.

Our guest this week is Jonathan Colman. I first got to know Jonathan when I saw his band Muscle Tough, opened for Karina Rykman at the Foundry at the Fillmore. I've written about Muscle Tough handful of times, and I also wrote a piece about Jonathan Colman, their bass player, and his series that he performs at Silk City called Dungeon Crawl.

Jonathan has also been playing with another trio with Eli Winderman and Johnny Kimock. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jonathan Colman. Jonathan, really happy to have you here.

Jonathan Colman Thank you Matt, I'm happy to be here.

Matt Hoffman Happy 40th birthday. One day belated.

Jonathan Colman Thank you. It was fun celebrating last night.

Matt Hoffman Yes. It was. So take me through your 30s like you're a heady wow. Sort of looking back, like, what are your top five awesome things from your 30s?

00:01:06:24 - 00:01:27:16 Jonathan Colman I'll say this I. I started my 30s and ended them with long hair. But in the middle, I got a cut. So the key to your key to your back. And also, it was like my 30th birthday was like, I'll say it wasn't a ticketed event.

00:01:27:19 - 00:01:49:23 Jonathan Colman And then last night was. Yeah. And, that wasn't by any particular grand design, but I'd say that's sort of a manifestation of, like, maybe a lot of the same people were at that event. And, I've just kind of stayed in the game. Yeah. To the point where we have something like Dungeon Crawl, which you can. It's always a wonderful prop for celebrating my birthday.

00:01:49:24 - 00:02:09:25 Matt Hoffman Oh, for sure. And that was the biggest crowd I've seen. A dungeon crawl is that I felt bad for my friends. Yeah. Ha! I was just like, it is window to the wall in here right now. And you know, I told my parents who you saw were there. Yeah. I was like, sneak over by the bathrooms. It's like no one goes there and you can really see what's going on.

00:02:09:25 - 00:02:25:25 Jonathan Colman That's the spot. Yeah. I always tell people by the mirrors, by the bathroom. Not too close. Yeah, know, I always know. That's a serious party when they show up there because they're, like, really interested in what's going on and yeah, want to see it and not just hear it too. That's super cool.

Matt Hoffman Well, so tell me about Dungeon Crawl in general. You've been doing it now for over two years, right?

00:02:25:25 - 00:02:48:04 Jonathan Colman Yeah. We'll have our second year performance begin. I think this February is two full years. Okay. And then the beginning of year three will be in March. Wow. And I'm doing that with muscle tough again.

Matt Hoffman Oh, cool.

Jonathan Colman Because, last year we had what became Goes to Hell.

00:02:48:10 - 00:03:08:03 Matt Hoffman Yes. Our live album. So a brief tangent about that.

Jonathan Colman Yeah. We had we actually found the audio of this, but we played a show in Lancaster and it was like, God, stop. It's over. You know, lights are going on and this guy runs up and he's like, if you guys don't play another song, you're gonna go straight to hell.

00:03:08:05 - 00:03:32:13 Jonathan Colman So loud. The whole club was like, we're it. And, we're like, what? I was like, looking at the sound guy. He's like, we're doing it. And so then we knew it was like our live album. Mazel tov. Goes to hell, right?

Matt Hoffman Have you guys planned to do it at a, dungeon crawler? Like, totally improvised.

Jonathan Colman Oh, we actually had, like, songs cooked up for it.

00:03:32:15 - 00:03:54:19 Jonathan Colman Okay. We like. Okay, the sugar mother from Charleston poorhouse. And like, we had, like, we're going to have our alive one, essentially. Yeah. And then things happen in that goes to hell was good enough. Fully improvised. Yeah. That we were like, okay. And then we had the relationship with nuggets that come together. So then it was like, oh, we can just have the live shows.

00:03:54:19 - 00:04:18:01 Jonathan Colman We want to be shared in that incredible way. So it ended up, working out really well. And then that's like unofficial release from Dungeon Crawl.

Matt Hoffman Yep. And I was listening to that yesterday, too. How did you think about where you chop up songs other than having fun naming them?

00:04:18:03 - 00:04:37:27 Jonathan Colman Well? Well, that was fun. Haha.

Matt Hoffman What are some of those like?

Jonathan Colman All hail the Demon prism. There's some really good ones. Yeah, but that was mood changes because for us, we can kind of hear, okay, here's a big stark tempo thing. Here's a big, stark key thing. We're diverging from the scene we've been in for a while. It's like, where to where does our attention kind of clearly drift?

00:04:37:27 - 00:04:56:08 Jonathan Colman And and as the guys who did the music, we can kind of affirm that.

Matt Hoffman Sure, sure.

Jonathan Colman And so then it's like, okay, we chop it down and then you have, I don't know, 20 something or whatever sections it was. Yeah. And for me, I was like listening in the gym and I'd like have like, you know, four come at once and putting them all in the document.

00:04:56:11 - 00:05:14:23 Jonathan Colman And I was like, guys, you got to look at this and like, are any of these funny or any of these cool. And then they had some and we just kind of found something that felt very true to the silly nature of sending a jazz fusion band to hell. Because I tell people like, they're like, oh, like, what are you guys?

00:05:14:23 - 00:05:37:00 Jonathan Colman I say jazz, rock, fusion. And it's like, that hasn't happened in a very long time.

Matt Hoffman Yeah, 50 years ago. Yeah. Well, so what does that mean to you in 2026 versus say, in the 70s?

00:05:37:00 - 00:06:06:06 Jonathan Colman Well, I mean we're we're so post genre these days where everything is hyphenated and we're trying to come up with a new buzzword to describe, you know, rock n roll or something. And I just feel like we have a fusion of the rock bombast, you know, it's not like clubs with tinkling glasses, like it's fists in the air and I'm going deaf. And also then the elegance of the jazz harmony and nuanced improvizations.

00:06:06:12 - 00:06:29:20 Matt Hoffman Yeah, I'm I'm working up my review for relics of the show last night, and I take the stream of consciousness notes during these shows, and there were so many times where I was like, big rock finish, big rock finish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And right then you guys are sort of like dipping into late 90s kind of Lower East Side, you know, funk up to the dancey stuff with the, you know, more of what you're doing now with. Okay. Yeah. What's it like doing an all improvised set with guys? You're actually in a band with? Wow.

00:06:29:22 - 00:06:54:18 Jonathan Colman Sick question. Well, well, stuff is more of a salty steak, right? We're like, entering our 12th year, so it's been marinating in something for quite some time. So with those guys, it was it's like. It's like beyond riding a bike I don't know. It's like it was like breathing in a way. Like we really and we do so much improvising in that band.

00:06:54:20 - 00:07:13:04 Jonathan Colman Okay. We definitely are so new. So we could be anything in a few years, but we. I like how you brought up the lower East Side, because both bands, in a way, it's like muscle stuff, has this Wayne Krantz thing, which is very important to me. The music of Wayne Krantz. Wayne Krantz is playing. He's still playing.

00:07:13:04 - 00:07:36:21 Jonathan Colman He's at the bitter end. You got to go see him. And then the Medeski thing and like, you know, Steve Bernstein and like all of that downtown Lower East Side vibe. We're we're scratching at it. Yeah. And and with, with Eli and Johnny, I feel like they're bringing out, like, this level of taste in me.

00:07:36:21 - 00:07:59:08 Jonathan Colman I mean, hock, as you know, he's grown up in this music, and he's. Most of the guys he plays with are 20 years or at least ten years older than us, you know? But usually 20 years and up. So he's getting these, like, levels of wisdom that we can't even fathom. Then he's slowly leaking onto us. But then at the same time, he gets to be in a band with guys that are his class.

00:07:59:11 - 00:08:17:15 Jonathan Colman And so I certainly I think I play a little bit less and with a little bit more intention because of some of the conversations that we've had surrounding that. And it's not that like there isn't a lack of intention and muscle stuff, but we may be like, don't say as much to each other about like, oh, you were this or that.

00:08:17:15 - 00:08:56:00 Jonathan Colman We were just like, it's more of like that. We're not analyzing it. Yeah. You know, and then what's okay, it's new. We're still kind of analyzing it and trying to get it to be like, something. Yeah. And I don't know, Eli and I, we share a lot. Like, as far I keep saying my class or my generation, but like, he's a keyboardist, but we're very musically close, like the off the instrument just in concept and theorizing and getting into some of the more like extended jazz harmony stuff with the symmetrical scales and, Barry Harris concepts and, you know, making things sound a little bit more fraught and intense, intentionally.

00:08:56:03 - 00:09:23:17 Matt Hoffman So here's a question I've heard you say before that if muscle tough were a scale, you would be the whole tone scale. Yeah, yeah. What is the whole tone scale trigger in your mind? And why do you think muscle tough is that infinite ness silliness true or and wonder like the the breadth of the cosmos because I think and I'm much less musically sophisticated.

00:09:23:17 - 00:09:39:09 Matt Hoffman Yeah. I think like dream sequence.

Jonathan Colman Oh my God, of course. Yeah. If there was a piano here that's like, that's the first thing I when I'm telling people about it. Yeah. So yeah, it's like. And then I work from a dream and it's that. Yeah, a music can be like that. I just the other side of the coin, whole tone diminished.

00:09:39:11 - 00:10:03:10 Jonathan Colman I'll be like, oh, it's like you got kids, right? They'll be like, yeah, I'll be like, except I'm a Lego.

Matt Hoffman Well, so if like, were a scale.

Jonathan Colman Oh Jesus Christ, we're probably the, the Barry Harris diminished six. Okay. Yeah.

Matt Hoffman Why? Why is that?

00:10:03:10 - 00:10:23:04 Jonathan Colman Well, I think that we draw on that sound a lot, so. And what that is, I could hack through it, but we'll hack through other stuff. Sure. But it's like you've got your major scale door. I mean, first of all, latte dough. But then in between soul and LA, there's layer. So like instead of that fa fee soul of the blues scale you got the soul. La la little chromatic chunk between the fifth and sixth.

00:10:23:06 - 00:10:43:15 Jonathan Colman And so what it does is it turns everything into either a major six chord inversion from the one, the three, the five and the six, or a diminished inversion from the two, four plus five or major seven, and it just two colors from that. And you can kind of always be like kind of being a pentatonic papa and then slip into the diminished thing and it's like all from that.

00:10:43:15 - 00:11:09:08 Jonathan Colman So it's beautiful.

Matt Hoffman So does everybody who plays Dungeon Crawl with you understand what you just said, or are you playing with hahahahahahahaha? Like, what is the difference between playing with, Theory Wizard versus not, my expectation. And also like what I present, like, I'm not going to like I with the dungeon crawl. Certainly. Like, I want to have an elevation.

00:11:09:10 - 00:11:27:16 Jonathan Colman Let's talking with my dad about this on the way here, I was like, man, it's really gone from being like, I need a place to play more notes crazily, you know, more to like, wow, I really hope that people have a good time at this, and I hope that we can give them some coherent, continuous feeling over the course of the sets.

00:11:27:18 - 00:11:51:19 Jonathan Colman And so, I don't know, I've had a little bit of like a shift there mentally. And so like even sometimes like nights with guitar players are tough. I've said this to you because it's like there's so guitar, there's so iconoclasts and they like they make us think of certain music, they have certain timbres from that. And, and in a way, like maybe the first time I had that experience on stage, I was like, I was coming to that.

00:11:51:21 - 00:12:08:00 Jonathan Colman But now after that, it's like, oh, like, this is okay, that it's this way. And I can like, lean into it and follow it and kind of let that be the thing. So more now I do have a, improvising manifesto.

Matt Hoffman Yes. Which I have read, but you've read I'm a year out of date. I'm assuming you've continued.

00:12:08:00 - 00:12:27:03 Jonathan Colman I've only added one thing.

Matt Hoffman What is that one thing?

Jonathan Colman It was it was. It was a Kim Hawk thing. I was he I hope, Johnny, if you see this, I love this. You know, he he's the best.

Matt Hoffman Yeah, I can't say enough. Oh. Agreed.

00:12:27:03 - 00:13:01:21 Jonathan Colman But he was like, it's to me and Eli. We need to hear this right now. Guys. Here's the thing. Right? And you guys are, like, doing about 10% of the thing and like, 90% statements insinuating the thing around it and responding to each other. And we are he's like, what if we flipped it? What if it was like 90% the thing, especially for me. And then 10% the statements. So instead of having a brilliant diminished interjection underneath every soloist over the course of a tune, maybe I had a moment like that once in the first set and it just felt more mature.

00:13:01:23 - 00:13:20:25 Matt Hoffman Right. I mean, well, so when I think of John, I think of him as, and I don't mean this in a diminutive way at all. I think of him as a sideman. Right. Like John is the drummer in Mike Gordon's band. How did the three of you come together as your own band?

Jonathan Colman I was thinking about this because we're all buddies, like we're all Mike's pals and Oteil supports us.

00:13:20:25 - 00:13:47:18 Jonathan Colman I I've met him before. I've got wonderful lessons from him at Bass Bootcamp. But I was thinking about this. I was like, I may have done a gig with Kemar before. He was in my band back in the day, at Jack Mcshane's in Ardmore. Wow. Which is across the street from Ardmore Music Hall. Right. And it was me, him and this guy, Al Smith, who, if he's from York, he's had a lot of different projects.

00:13:47:18 - 00:14:11:10 Jonathan Colman And, honestly, he lives all over. I never know where he lives, but he's an amazing guy. Musician. Johnny on drums, me doing my pedal stuff, and al doing keys. And so we had that friendship, and, was like, man, I was like, great to do this with you. Let's keep in touch. So. And then Eli and I met and had beautiful friendship and, you know, funk and ball is the thing that I'm sure we'll do again.

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:28:03 Jonathan Colman But we really put a lot of steam into that and kind of getting into the Philly scene together and kind of making our connections. And so when Johnny was like, hey, like, who are good keyboard players? Like, do you want to come? Like, were you going to come to the barn and play with me? My dad and I was like, yeah, I do.

00:14:28:03 - 00:14:49:01 Jonathan Colman And here's the guy, Windham and yes, Windham. And and so we went up and we actually like, made a basically our first record with Steve. And he didn't hear any of the music beforehand, and he just played along and it was awesome. But then after we were done, it was the music's great, but it never happened.

00:14:49:01 - 00:15:08:22 Jonathan Colman It was just like, we are all in different directions, so that's exists somewhere. But we did kind of have a reprise where we did a gig with Steve last year. And. Right. And it was so fun and, and it was like, I don't know, talk about taste and patience and just really being connected in the moment. Like, I felt that playing with them and.

00:15:08:27 - 00:15:25:09 Matt Hoffman Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There's not really a lot of father son duos that I've played with before.

Jonathan Colman But yeah, but that's kind of the string of the friendships. It's like, I knew those guys. I knew we have a nice chemistry and and happy to be right. And Eli is so inspired. He's a lot of the original music we have is just stuff.

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:44:10 Jonathan Colman He was like, I want something cool and easy. That these guys can latch onto and we can start playing shows immediately. So it was like the first gig we did. I think we spent a whole day getting our material fleshed out. First we like, oh, here's the songs. And then like, we slept over and we went and did a gig the next day and I was like, all right, cool.

00:15:44:17 - 00:16:01:14 Jonathan Colman And then we went to record. That's how it went, Yeah.

Matt Hoffman Now. And that first recording was The Help on the Way and Slipknot. I know this was like other shit.

Jonathan Colman Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, it's like actually some of it. Let's think Bela is a song that's on. It's not on the vinyl, but it's on the full release.

00:16:01:15 - 00:16:21:21 Matt Hoffman Is that a Bartok reference or a no.

Jonathan Colman I think it's a Flac reference because it's kind of gives like Big Country or like something from live at the quick like has this like very stirring, diatonic, uplifting energy. You know, it's the best. Yeah. I mean, people fucking love the major scale.

Matt Hoffman Yeah I do yeah. It it just feels good.

00:16:21:21 - 00:16:27:12 Jonathan Colman It feels great for me, you know? Yeah.

00:16:27:15 - 00:16:48:15 Matt Hoffman Well, so you you mentioned playing with Kim, who obviously is a major pillar of the scene. Steve. Steve. Yes. That's right. I know you played recently with John Scofield. I have a tribute. Tell me about that.

Jonathan Colman I did. Wow. Well, I got to welcome him. I think, besides his friends out of the freshmen, you guys I was with, I got to be like, hey, John, how are you?

00:16:48:18 - 00:17:08:01 Jonathan Colman Thanks for being here. You're over there. And, and then it's like, you know, we eat in the same area, and Steve Bernstein is like, so kind of Holly and I and sat down and chilled with us and, it's amazing, like Scofield's like having, like, a sandwich or something, like right there. It's amazing. Yeah.

00:17:08:01 - 00:17:36:15 Jonathan Colman I, I had, I moved a music stand, so we didn't bump into it. I remember that, and we, we played Blessed Relief by Frank Zappa. It was this Jerry's Garage Zappa and dead night. That's right. Yeah. Eric's like, had put together and it was a wild band. And then I Greenfield on keys and Pauline Roberts on vibes. And, I forget the sax guy's name, but there was when Scholes solo ended, the sax guy started his with the same phrase, and I was like, now that's a musician.

00:17:36:17 - 00:17:59:24 Jonathan Colman But I think playing with SCO went well. Obviously I've gotten in trouble for being hyper responsorial as a bass player. Right? And I have like, you know, Mike and Phil and Oteil and all these guys that are going over the bar line in my arm, barium. And so I, I thought I did a good job of keeping it interesting and also keeping it rounded.

00:17:59:27 - 00:18:16:27 Jonathan Colman And I there is somebody else is soloing and it was a minor chord. And I started outlining diminished and he heard me and looked over and and hit the diminished chord. Did a little look and I was like, this is one of those things. Tough to explain why it matters so much, but he fucking he really heard me.

00:18:16:27 - 00:18:37:19 Matt Hoffman So dude, it's it's the little moments like that I don't. I'd love to play with John again sometime. My friend Josh Dylan plays with him when he does some touring. When it's not Bill Stuart. Sure. Josh is the drummer from Paris Monster. Yeah, okay. And Josh has done two dungeon crawls, I think.

Jonathan Colman Oh, cool. Or at least one, but maybe too many of funk and balls.

00:18:37:25 - 00:18:57:29 Matt Hoffman So you mentioned the word friendship earlier, and I mentioned the word wizard earlier. Yes. Tell me where does this have derivation? And I will say it's it's become very it's been very easy to become your friend. Where does that come from?

Jonathan Colman Well, my nature, I don't think that I came up with it. I feel like it was my friend Steve Clifford, who I remember one time he.

00:18:58:06 - 00:19:15:20 Jonathan Colman I had the worst Instagram handle. I'm not even going to say what it was, but he was like, he, like, begged me to change it. He was like, dude, you need to change it. Like make it Jonathan Coleman bass or something, something else. And somewhere along the way, somebody called me that and I just liked it, you know?

00:19:15:20 - 00:19:42:16 Jonathan Colman Like it. It seemed appropriate. It fits. Definitely fit. So I leaned into it and, And I'm happy to be dubbed it. There's people in the world that know me just as Friendship wizard, and they yell out at concerts and I'm like, yes, yes.

Matt Hoffman Yeah. Well, so the first time I saw you opening for Karina at the Foundry, I was talking with Dave Avidan.

00:19:42:16 - 00:20:02:21 Matt Hoffman I was reviewing the show for, for somebody and, talk with Dave Avidan, who I've worked with before. The photographer. Yeah. And he was like, yeah, I've been talking with Friendship Wizard. I'm like, I don't know who that is, but he sounds awesome.

Jonathan Colman Amazing. Yeah, that's that's case in point, you know?

Matt Hoffman Yeah. So, I do think Dave knows my real name, too.

00:20:02:22 - 00:20:09:00 Jonathan Colman He does some people, though. Certainly, certainly by now.

Matt Hoffman So have you always studied with bass players or have you studied with, other musicians?

00:20:09:00 - 00:20:34:19 Jonathan Colman Oh, man. I had a great college experience at Tulane University, where I studied with, I would say, other musicians. I had, incredible jazz teacher, trumpet player, Sean Jones. If you haven't heard of them, he's got an incredible body of work and, educational career and just presence in the music world.

00:20:34:22 - 00:20:49:29 Jonathan Colman And he was like, I would say, in the beginning of walking into his power as, like, really being an artist and still having the educational world. But the world was finding out about him, and it was so cool to like, get it for he'd be like out playing all night, and then he'd be like, in with our combo.

00:20:50:01 - 00:21:07:18 Jonathan Colman And like, everything was a food analogy. But it was beautiful and it helped us play music together better. And I ended up doing an independent study with him. I was his first bass player, and you know what I mean? I was like, what's the difference going to have to mention diminish? How do I solo over this? And he was like, what if you checked out Paul Chambers?

00:21:07:18 - 00:21:26:17 Jonathan Colman What if you checked out George de vivir? What if you checked out these Sam Jones, these different upright players and I? The deal was when I finished a transcription which was written. So I'd have to I'd be up all night figuring out what the fuck was going on and really writing it. And, you know, next week I hand it in and he'd be like, all right, this is what to do.

00:21:26:17 - 00:21:50:06 Jonathan Colman A versus chord, you know, but there was great like theory wise, there is Eli, Tamar, David Cutler who is incredible musicians who got me into solfege and thinking, with movable dough and understanding the modes and introducing me to the music of Debussy, which became like the most important music in my life, Debussy's String Quartet and G minor.

00:21:50:06 - 00:22:08:29 Jonathan Colman Favorite piece of all time, any genre.

Matt Hoffman Wow. Why is that?

Jonathan Colman Oh, man, I don't know. It's the best it has. It's to me, it's life. It's all of it. The the the the triumphs and the tumults are all swirling in there in that composition and that a Debussy's a part of your morning ritual, right? Coffee and piano.

00:22:08:29 - 00:22:26:04 Jonathan Colman I every now and then we'll shed like girl with the Flaxen hair, Clair de lune. I'll get it like all the way down. I was even, like teaching kids how to play this stuff better than I ever could. And this student, Claire, who was really getting through. I believe it was Clair de Lune. Or maybe it was flaxen hair.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:48:18 Jonathan Colman Oh, reverie. That's what it was. Yeah. Claire, if you see this at some point, I'm remain proud of you. And it's on the line somewhere. But hopefully she will. But, you know, the piano's a little tune. I'm studying different stuff right now.

Matt Hoffman I don't know that you have a teacher now.

Jonathan Colman Well, that's a really good question. I took a lesson with, Evan Marion recently.

00:22:48:21 - 00:23:08:27 Matt Hoffman I don't know, Evan.

Jonathan Colman Oh. He's great. He is my age, actually. He went to college at Berkeley when the double pot guys were there. They know who he is, but, I mean, his resume is pretty nuts. He played with Holdsworth up until the end of his life. He plays with Teagan Hassan. He plays with Wayne Krantz.

00:23:08:29 - 00:23:29:21 Jonathan Colman His own music is amazing with a musician, Dana Hawkins, who plays drums and bass equally well. And they're both they're a duo, but it's very arranged and they use Midi intelligently. And, I don't know, he's he's as a Wayne Krantz fan, where the bass is generally very pocket, even if it is darting around in contrapuntal interesting ways.

00:23:29:23 - 00:23:48:16 Jonathan Colman He ends up taking solos some house and they're great. Oh my God, they're the best. So, and Holly is a fan of his playing so much too. And I was like, you know what? I got to take a lesson with somebody that's awesome is,

Matt Hoffman Do you find that, the bass with Krantz is the same? Whether it's his chord trios.

00:23:48:16 - 00:24:09:17 Jonathan Colman What Grant's I mean, he dungeon crawl is just like a response to Wayne Krantz existing in some way. It's like I'm taking the idea of I'm getting who I consider, true conjurers, involved. And then they trust me and we do our thing. And that's kind of what Wayne's up to with the great bass players. And drummers he gets.

00:24:09:24 - 00:24:30:27 Jonathan Colman And then he's trying some new stuff this year, and people are showing up for it, and it it feels electric. It feels amazing. So Krantz, Carlock LaFave is like the, it's Wayne second trio because there was Lincoln Goines and Zach Danziger, which is also a fantastic era of music. But in 2000, right, there was like, but Phish was, stopping.

00:24:30:27 - 00:25:00:17 Jonathan Colman Yeah. And Kql was popping. And, you know, a lot of there's like a whole crowd of, like, Phish, people that, like, know about Krantz and we're like, you know, skip the garden and do this 155 bar show and like, it's a nice little cross-pollination of worlds there.

Matt Hoffman Well, it's funny you mention that kind of window while Phish was on hiatus because I saw, Mike and the duo incredible at the TLA, and it must have been like 2004, and they did a great cover of cars, truck busses.

00:25:00:17 - 00:25:26:14 Jonathan Colman Yeah, cars, trucks, busses, which you guys, Wunderman Coleman Cammack did on the on the record. Yeah. How did you decide which covers you were going to put on the record? Really? Good question. We knew we needed some covers to, like, just have a show happen where people were interested in it all, but, I think Eli was like, we got to do something Grateful Dead because people love it.

00:25:26:16 - 00:25:46:26 Jonathan Colman And they do. We do, don't we? And, it made sense. So we were like, well, what if we did it like crunk bean style? Laura Lee is one of my favorite, like, esthetic based presences of the modern age. And, their music is awesome. It's so amazing that people joke about it raising the prices in places that it's played.

00:25:46:26 - 00:26:05:12 Jonathan Colman I mean, that's something. Yeah. So we were going for that. And then cars trucks was a little bit more like us just doing cars, trucks. And there's a longer version on the digital version to where I do take a solo. But it just seemed kind of easy for him. I guess maybe Eli brought that to the table.

00:26:05:12 - 00:26:25:25 Jonathan Colman We know the Bad Plus has an incredible version of it, but our stuff still needed to be out there, too. Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Hoffman Well, and, I mean, how do you think about an arrangement of a given song, right. Because there are some covers sound exactly like the original. Some sound nothing like it. How do you think about an arrangement?

00:26:25:25 - 00:26:45:19 Jonathan Colman Yeah, well, I guess that's. You said it right there. I mean, sometimes it's almost easier. It's like we trying to do this, like it is cool and it's like, oh, well, how are you going to do that part? We can't. We're just three of us and skip it. But sometimes if it's like, oh, let's do this. Like, what is something you'll hear from us soon as we do, in memory of Elizabeth Reed.

00:26:45:22 - 00:27:08:01 Jonathan Colman But Latin, so it's important to get that kick and, ding dong, ding dong. And we did it actually, with Rob. We did these, like, college gigs with Composer in Vermont, and, it was sick.

Matt Hoffman That's awesome. Yeah. Latin. Elizabeth Reed.

Jonathan Colman Yeah, Latin. Elizabeth Reed. I can see it. And, I mean, John's got it. He plays a mean clavier.

00:27:08:04 - 00:27:29:03 Matt Hoffman Yes he does. That's, That's fantastic. Well, you also mentioned, the different modes earlier, and I know that you you're probably the most Lydian guy I know. Yeah. Tell me about the the Lydian chromatic concept and how it's impacted during.

Jonathan Colman Sure. I was in LA. I lived in L.A. for a little while, managed by Jerry Heller.

00:27:29:06 - 00:27:49:16 Matt Hoffman Yeah. Wow.

Jonathan Colman I used to change light bulbs in his house. Like, we made Costco pizzas in his fridge. We watched his dogs. We did front flips into his pool. He was our guy.

Matt Hoffman Was he the guy who managed, And. Yeah.

00:27:49:18 - 00:28:10:04 Jonathan Colman Yeah, I had a band 28 North from Pittsburgh. We moved to sell it. So I think it was like his sister in law worked at UCLA library. I really wanted to get my hands on this book about, a Theory of Tonal Convergence by Ted Dunbar, which was something Anastacio had learned from, and it was Ted's response to reading The Lady and Chromatic Book.

00:28:49:18 - 00:28:10:04 Jonathan Colman So she found the Ted Dunbar book, had it mailed to UCLA. Got that photocopied. And I was like, what about this other one, too? It's only in chromatic text. And so she went found that, got that photocopied. So I took those eventually back to the East Coast with me sitting dust. Haha. And then about a year or two years ago, I was like, I'm going to teach myself this now.

00:28:30:14 - 00:28:45:21 Jonathan Colman And I did it all at the piano. And then I was like, ooh, I should have done that at bass. But it helped me understand the sound more and then I had to process that through it. So it's a lot of using stuff that you already know on the instrument in a super and positional way to get a new sound.

Matt Hoffman Yeah. And when you say the book you mean the George Russell book.

00:28:45:21 - 00:29:00:20 Jonathan Colman Yeah. The George Russell one. I'm actually going to start working through this Ted Dunbar one the one I mentioned. Sure. I'm just going to show you all the scales for a minute, but here's just kind of the first level.

00:29:00:23 - 00:29:10:03 Jonathan Colman Oh, Lydian. And I give you an Evan Marian ism from my lesson.

00:29:10:05 - 00:29:31:02 Jonathan Colman Evan, I've been practicing. That's beautiful. Right. It sounds very beautiful. Right? It sounds like some of the, like Mike Gordon inside in that first record. He that's got some sort of vibes like that.

Matt Hoffman Oh, yeah? Yeah, we were talking about bellows. Buckler?

Jonathan Colman Yeah. That's right. So then the next sound, it gets a little bit crazier.

00:29:31:05 - 00:29:40:28 Jonathan Colman Oh, right. That's an augmented coloration.

00:29:41:00 - 00:29:56:27 Jonathan Colman And it's this thing Lydian augmented. So instead of getting to me. So we get to be some little old part of me. There it is.

00:29:57:00 - 00:30:13:15 Jonathan Colman Cool. So then they have a diminished version of that which is like really fun and creepy sounding.

00:30:13:18 - 00:30:23:29 Jonathan Colman So even on their own, they start to become quite interesting.

00:30:24:01 - 00:30:43:16 Jonathan Colman And let's keep going. Then we get, they call it Lydian dominant. So this one is very jam band friendly. You get this? Or am I? But do do do do do do do give me Michael Jackson.

00:30:43:19 - 00:31:05:11 Jonathan Colman There's the triads. Yeah. I kind of. It's funky, but it's still got the mystery.

Matt Hoffman Okay.

Jonathan Colman And then we're getting a little bit darker. Now here. Is that everyone's favorite? The whole tone scale. Dream sequence. Time.

00:31:05:13 - 00:31:12:00 Jonathan Colman And I love this one. Just like the colors.

00:31:12:03 - 00:31:38:20 Jonathan Colman You can really get away with a lot of murder using all tone. And then. Then you get into these wild ones. He calls this auxiliary diminished, but I call it blues major. And it's like. You got your blues scale with the two. But like the Barry Harris, it either becomes. Either diminished or.

00:31:38:22 - 00:32:04:04 Jonathan Colman An inversion of the five chord. Those are the only two colors. And then the last scale on the whole system is the half all diminished. And so these are all I'm doing these from a has all a. But then what you could do is you start doing these from different intervals over different keys. So if we're in a and I do something like G Lydian augmented.

00:32:04:06 - 00:32:32:08 Jonathan Colman Then and it's just ways that you can kind of expand the framework of what you're already and using these derived scales. And then find superimposition away. So I've been saying recently that as jam band improvisers we're really on land, sea and air, which is major minor and dominant. We're just hanging out on one of those chords and it's like there's a difference between guys that can solo and play the pentatonic scale and then little.

00:32:32:11 - 00:32:53:16 Jonathan Colman Like I mentioned earlier, when the cameras are off the arranging, the composing, the inventing themes, returning to them, abandoning them like that level of it. So even if, like all of this knowledge is something that I don't end up tangibly getting to do on stage in that moment, it's in there kind of informing my perspective and note choices.

00:32:53:18 - 00:33:18:00 Jonathan Colman And the one thing people get into, they'll be like, oh, like, well, that's just that with a flat two. And like, yeah, that is the math of what you get, but it's the shapes themselves that sort of provide the new creative and mental avenues on the fretboard that have made it interesting for me.

Matt Hoffman That is fascinating. I'm going to say I understood about somewhere between 25 and 35% of what you said.

00:33:18:00 - 00:33:52:12 Jonathan Colman It's a good number.

Matt Hoffman How is sort of Lydian chromatic thinking different than just playing, you know, in the Lydian mode?

Jonathan Colman Well, you get more callers than just Lydian. But it it may be reinforces my relationship to what is consonant by adding in all this dissonance. And, I, I've just felt like I have more sovereignty in musical moments and like, and I'm less perplexed by music I'm hearing, you know, I mean, so much of getting into music is like, I like music.

00:33:52:17 - 00:34:11:00 Jonathan Colman Oh, I love this music. This band is composer. I don't know anything about it or music at all. I just love this. It elicits something in me. And so to now be able to be like, oh yeah, that's like an augmented chord or like it's, you know, like, a nightmare to watch TV with because I'm always just calling out the modes and different harmonic things and stuff.

00:34:11:00 - 00:34:32:05 Jonathan Colman And I took a few music classes in college, and I remember this one professor, like, the AC was humming. He's like, do you hear that? That's enough sharp. I was like, yo! And I'm like, you're that. I'm I'm, I'm relative pitch. I, I work with what I've got or what's happening around me. So.

Matt Hoffman Right. And you mentioned solfege, which seems like a pretty kind of portable way of thinking about.

00:34:32:08 - 00:34:53:17 Jonathan Colman Yeah, solfege actually really is, it's informative and I and it's also good for talking to other musicians if they know it too.

Matt Hoffman Well, so you've also got six strings now to be able to extend a lot of those.

Jonathan Colman And honestly, that's why I got the six. It wasn't like, I know I now have guys that I, I'm getting inspiration from instrument specific.

00:34:53:20 - 00:35:27:02 Jonathan Colman But I was really starting to be like oh okay. Like well before I could do this chord. Okay, cool. And then I had the five string and I could do this chord. Cool. But then I got this and I'm really starting to see music this way. I was like, okay, cool, I can get these big, oh, what if I, JBC and, and I was just like, oh, it's more like the piano, but it's a bass guitar too, because I can still do the.

00:35:27:04 - 00:36:00:08 Jonathan Colman I can still play bass. Hahahahahahahaha

Matt Hoffman is this your first bass?

Jonathan Colman Third, third. It's my third strike.

Matt Hoffman Wow. What do you love about Cirque basses?

Jonathan Colman The size, weight, feel, look, sound and maker. So basically The Sixth Sense as well. I don't know every fucking thing about them. I couldn't I'm cursing listeners. It's, I love Jake, Eric. He's he's in my mind.

00:36:00:08 - 00:36:25:01 Jonathan Colman Made it. He he works on his terms. He has a beautiful family. He's he's doing a great service to the greater musical world and rock and roll, might I add, lest we look at the other artists playing these, these basses and, and he's got his head on his shoulders.

Matt Hoffman I could describe you the same way.

Jonathan Colman No, but I, I really believe in him.

00:36:25:03 - 00:36:49:22 Jonathan Colman This definitely won't be my last one of these. And, we're just learning as we go. And I started with the yellow shorty Midwestern that opened some doors. Then I got a bass that really no one had seen. Because it's the all birdseye maple ish one that's medium scale, and it doesn't work for most stuff because of all the stuff that I write with.

00:36:49:25 - 00:36:58:03 Jonathan Colman Like crazy, kind of, even Chill dentist is like.

00:36:58:06 - 00:37:14:20 Jonathan Colman Like I'm getting up here and doing all these chords, so, like, just even that on the medium scale, it just wasn't it. So it wasn't I used it for like stuff where it was more trad bass. I don't know, I sometimes I think it's like, oh, if I get a big call from someone, that'll probably be the bass.

00:37:14:20 - 00:37:34:02 Jonathan Colman I bring. But for now, it's just chilling.

Matt Hoffman Sure. And you like the short scale basses?

Jonathan Colman I do a lot. I like the way they, you know, after years of the fenders, kind of pulling my shoulder out of alignment. Like, I have a great chiropractor now, so. But, the small scale, it's just more guitar. It's all here.

00:37:34:03 - 00:38:00:04 Jonathan Colman Like, I'm so, I mean, I'm a carbon copy of all the bass players and musicians I love. You know, I this isn't happening in a vacuum. But I just, I like my chords, and I like my little isms, and, you know, like, I'm beyond green onions, I this can be entertainment within itself. To me.

Matt Hoffman What is the most recent bass on an album that has blown your mind?

00:38:00:11 - 00:38:22:08 Jonathan Colman Oh, wow. I got to. I got into two bass records recently. Rich Brown, who's from Canada, great six string player and educator and player. He, he has a new record out. I don't know exactly the name of it. I can't remember it. I feel like it was like, a tribute to some element of his African heritage and roots.

00:38:22:08 - 00:38:44:27 Jonathan Colman That's, like, very world music feeling. And the bass feels like it could be some kind of crazy street instrument at times. And other times it's like just searing melodic beauty. The other one is, it's Yannick with dollar. I'm hoping I'm saying that right. Do you know Yannick?

Matt Hoffman I don't know

Jonathan Colman he's another one of these guys that's like great player, big geek into educating and consistent.

00:38:44:27 - 00:39:07:25 Jonathan Colman I think the formula I can use those words to describe his performance. So him and this other bass player who I know his name Danielle, I just, I just keep finding six string players, right? They did a bass duets improvise, and I call it Chase Bliss Gone Wild. And it's like all just the crazy glitchy stuff. But those are two really, really bass specific things that are new that I've been really switched on by.

00:39:07:28 - 00:39:30:05 Matt Hoffman Awesome. And I don't think we have time to talk about your whole crown box of effects, but I'm curious, do you have any Chase plus pedals?

Jonathan Colman I do, I have several, I use the mood, privately at home. I have the the blooper, which I just use as a looper. And then I have the tonal recall, which is a delay pedal.

00:39:30:05 - 00:39:47:24 Jonathan Colman Then there's like a nice sort of like a vinyl ization on it, too.

Matt Hoffman I have one chase plus pedal. Do you want to guess what it is? It's not the mood. It's not the habit.

Jonathan Colman It's a habit.

Matt Hoffman It's the habit.

Jonathan Colman Oh, cool.

Matt Hoffman It's like the happy accident machine, which.

00:39:47:24 - 00:40:07:02 Matt Hoffman Yeah, which is fantastic for a player like me.

Jonathan Colman Yeah, it just like that. It's. It's amazing. They just came out with something called the Lost and Found to, which is pretty cool. It's like, I guess a bunch of ideas that they didn't get to, like, put in the algorithms of something else. So I checked it out recently. I was it was very interesting.

Matt Hoffman What's on your short list of effects you'd like to add to the to the cranberries?

00:40:07:03 - 00:40:37:00 Jonathan Colman Oh, wow. Oh, God. I'd love I'd love to make. Well, you know what? I'd love to get involved with Dunlop MXR because I've loved their strings for so long. Their purple sparkly envelope filter is like the envelope filter. And then obviously the MXR bass synth, which everybody is freaking out about.

Matt Hoffman Yeah,

Jonathan Colman I will say a student brought it over my friend Justin Cropper, and, we plugged it in and I went through the presets.

00:40:37:00 - 00:41:02:08 Jonathan Colman I didn't turn a knob. I was just like music, music, music. It just worked. It was so good. So I love to check that out, but it's hard to break away from my source audio C4 because it's just so sculpted. BL like get it? I love the menus of the source audio stuff. Some people aren't trying to go there, but I like to be in there and and, you know, taking this down just to, you know, and really getting it exactly where I like it.

00:41:02:08 - 00:41:19:03 Jonathan Colman And then you can share it with your friends.

Matt Hoffman I love it, dude. I wish we had more time to keep talking.

Jonathan Colman It's all right.

Matt Hoffman This is the first conversation. Definitely not the last. Yes. Thank you so much for being on the show. I couldn't think of a better person to be our first guest, so thanks again, man.

Jonathan Colman Thank you for having me.

00:41:19:03 - 00:41:19:13 Matt Hoffman Yeah.